While there was a lot of consternation heading into WWDC over Apple skipping John Gruber’s live taping of The Talk Show, it might have all been for the best. Instead of sitting down with Craig and Joz, who were both unlikely to say much more than they did during the day, we got to hear a really fun conversation between John and two of my favorite people on the internet: Nilay Patel and Joanna Stern.

I watched live inside of my Vision Pro, but now you can stream it on YouTube. It’s also available to listen to as an audio podcast in your app of choice, but the live show is always worth watching instead. You can tell the three of them had a great time, and it was refreshing to hear brutally honest takes that dove deep into the nerdiest of weeds instead of PR talking points.

Ultimately, it reflects poorly on Apple and not on John. Their decision to do interviews with just about everyone else came off as a bit petty. But John leaned into it all, didn’t treat the snub as a weakness, and delivered a show as good as any other year.

Plus, as a supplement to your viewing of The Talk Show, I highly recommend you also watch Joanna hold Apple’s feet to the fire. She asked everything that needed to be asked of them and more.